By Robert Riggs | True Crime Reporter®
“I always ask—what inspired them to become who they are today?” Robin Dreeke told me during our second sit-down for the True Crime Reporter® podcast.
He wasn’t just talking about criminals or spies. He was talking about all of us.
A former FBI Special Agent and Chief of the Bureau’s elite Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program, Dreeke spent his career flipping foreign spies and decoding deception at the highest levels of counter espionage.
His job wasn’t just to catch traitors—it was to recruit them. Now, in part two of our interview, Dreeke takes listeners even deeper into the behavioral science he distilled in his book “Sizing People Up”.
If part one revealed the methods behind the man, part two shows how his hard-won insights can keep you from being fooled—or worse, betrayed—by people in everyday life.
A Truth Detector Built on Patterns
I asked Dreeke about something I’d seen time and again as an investigative reporter: government officials melting under pressure when they realize I had documents they never expected anyone to uncover.
“They get what I call cotton mouth,” I told him. “Smacking their lips, drying their mouth—stress signals.”
Dreeke nodded.
“What you saw were nonverbal signs of stress,” he explained. “But nonverbals alone can’t tell you the truth. They just tell you when someone is under pressure. What we’re really looking for is a deviation in patterns—patterns of behavior, language, timelines.”
According to Dreeke, lies fall apart not because they’re false but because they’re incongruent. A lie lacks the lived-in flow of a real memory.
“The best interrogators will ask people to tell their story backward,” he said. “That’s where lies start to crumble. The timeline breaks down.”
What Caused the Change
One of Dreeke’s most powerful tools is what he calls the behavioral life arc.
“If someone has shown sterling character in the past, but all of a sudden they’re asking you to do something that feels off? That’s when I start digging. I want to know what happened in that gap,” he told me.
The past can’t be trusted if you don’t understand what changed. Whether it’s a friend, a colleague, or someone you’ve lost touch with, Dreeke says transparency is your only protection.
“I always ask for more data. You can never have too much behavior to analyze.”
The Lie That Tells the Truth
When we discussed high-profile criminal cases, Dreeke drew a direct line between spy recruitment and the psychology of killers.
“I ask the same question every time: What inspired them to become who they are today?” he said.
He believes that everyone—yes, even murderers—are acting in their self-interest. “From their point of view, they’re doing what they think is best for their safety, their security, their prosperity.”
But that doesn’t mean it’s sane or moral. Dreeke says the key is understanding how people justify their choices to themselves.
“When you listen closely, you’ll hear rationalizations. You’ll hear projections. You’ll hear minimizations. That’s how people give themselves permission to do the unthinkable.”
From Wound Collectors to Traitors
Dreeke saw firsthand how wounded egos and a victim mindset can turn into betrayal.
He once shared a squad with FBI mole Robert Hanssen and followed the cases of other traitors like Earl Pitts.
“They had the same stressors as everyone else in the office,” Dreeke told me. “But they perceived themselves as victims. They collected wounds. They blamed the Bureau. That’s who foreign intelligence services end up recruiting—people who already feel wronged and want reciprocity.”
The most dangerous people, he warned, don’t need to be found. “They self-recruit.”
Violence Without Problem Solving
We discussed the rising trend of violence in younger people, and Dreeke offered a sobering insight.
“They don’t have the problem-solving life reps we did,” he said. “We were working with adults at 12 or 13, learning how to deal with jerks, how to talk our way out of situations. Now, some kids go from zero to crisis with no tools. And what they’ve seen modeled is violence.”
His takeaway?
“People today don’t just lack the ability to solve their own problems—they lack the interest in solving others’ problems. That’s the shift.”
The Trust Deficit
When I asked him about the state of trust in America, Dreeke didn’t hesitate.
“It’s low. But that’s okay. I read history to stay calm. It reminds me that this isn’t the worst it’s ever been.”
He blames active measures—old-school Russian intelligence tactics—to exploit division and sow distrust.
“They used to do it through churches and newspapers. Now, it’s online. Social media is the new battlefield.”
And he sees the danger of people falling for narratives that turn narcissists into martyrs.
I brought up the case of Luigi Mangione, charged with the ambush style murder of Brian Thompson, the CEO UnitedHealthcare. Mangione is being portrayed as a kind of Robin Hood by online supporters.
“He’s not a social justice warrior,” Dreeke said firmly. “He’s a narcissistic killer who wanted attention. He had everything. He just wanted more eyes on him.”
Trauma Bonds and Cult Tactics
We ended our conversation discussing how good people get trapped in toxic relationships, unable to see the manipulation.
“People don’t stay because they like abuse. They’re trauma bonded,” Dreeke said. “These manipulators learn your insecurities, validate them, they love bomb you and then take it away bit by bit. You get addicted to that little hit of validation while they’re slowly destroying you.”
I asked if the abusers know what they’re doing.
“It becomes who they are,” he replied. “They don’t need a playbook. They just play the part.”
And for those caught in it?
“It’s hard to recognize when you are in it. You need loving critics—someone halfway healthy—to help pull you out. That’s the only way.”
GET YOUR EXCLUSIVE DISCOUNT PROMO CODES
41% Off Cozy Earth Sheets, Pajamas and More
20% Off Eric Javits Designer Hats Worn by True Crime TV Detectives
20% Off HyperNatural Men’s Polo Shirts
15% Off TONA Activewear Designer Gym Leggings
15% Off STAND+ Comfort Shoes For Extended Standing
10% Off AKILA Sunglasses and Eyewear
PLEASE SUPPORT MY WORK
Click here to purchase my “Texas Crime Stories” audiobook. It downloads into your podcast app.
Click here to purchase the Paperback & Kindle editions on Amazon.
Schedule me to speak at your social meeting or corporate event.
My presentation, “Evil Walks Among Us,” features stories about serial killers and notorious criminals and personal safety tips.
Step into the storied halls of the Texas Prison Museum and uncover the gripping tales of infamous inmates, daring escapes, and the history of justice in the Lone Star State.