Robert Riggs:
Joe Pulizzi is known as the Godfather of Content Marketing.
The godfathers that you usually hear about from me head Mafia families in New York City or the Dixie Mafia in the south.
So this is a departure from my true crime stories.
I was intrigued when Pulizzi, the best-selling author of books for content entrepreneurs, surprised many with his bold shift from writing about marketing to crafting a compelling crime novel.
His most recent literary venture, 'The Will To Die,' plunges readers into a gripping narrative, unfolding in the eerie setting of a funeral home.
Pulizziās thematic choice evokes the real-life case of Bernhardt "Bernie" Tiede, an East Texas funeral director whose story is as chilling as any crime fiction.
Tiede's case, which involved the murder of a wealthy cantankerous widow and his subsequent conviction, shocked the nation and inspired the dark comedy film Bernie.
Like Bernie's tale, Pulizzi's novel explores human nature's duality and the sinister undercurrents that can lurk beneath the surface of everyday life.
Joe Pulizzi joins me from his home in Cleveland, Ohio, to discuss what it takes to craft a fictional crime mystery in the spirit of Agatha Christie or Raymond Chandler.
Robert Riggs:
Joe, mean you already had a great track record of best sellers in marketing books. What possessed you to go off in a crime novel?
Joe Pulizzi:
I think the most important part was I wanted to write something that my wife would actually read. And she basically said, and I said, I've written all these marketing books. And she said, well, those are boring. And I i don't want to read any of those. She only, by the way, I've always written, you know, it's been like to Pam, the acknowledgments and everything. That's the only thing she ever read. And I said, wouldn't it be nice if I could actually write something that my wife would read? And she loves mysteries and thrillers. So I started to try to outline something that she would be interested in. And it was probably the most challenging thing I'd ever done creatively. Took me a while to get there, which we could talk about if you want to. And and and came out with the the will to die. and and
Joe Pulizzi:
i She gave her the, the, uh, the first draft and she said, this is the best thing you've ever done. Granted, she'd never read any of my marketing stuff.
Robert Riggs:
yeah
Joe Pulizzi:
And, and then I had an actual editor, you know, went through the whole process and and published it and still probably to this day, it's one of the the things I'm most proud of.
Robert Riggs:
Well, as you know, women are really drive this genre of their interests, both true and novels in crime. Did you get a sense from her of what appealed to her, what she was looking for in the book?
Joe Pulizzi:
So yes, you know, they always, you know, at least if you if you think about I'm creating content for an audience, what are my audience's needs? I used my wife as sort of the audience that I was writing to. And probably give me an a specific example, the ending, it's very important to my wife that things are wrapped up, that there are no cliffhangers. but like she goes to a movie, if there's something that doesn't get resolved, she's unhappy when she leaves the movie theater.
Joe Pulizzi:
So the same with any mystery or thriller. And so she, she tends to read, you know, she'll read a Patterson or, you know, short sentences, short chapters, um ah lots of lots of dialogue, ah which I love.
Robert Riggs:
Mm.
Joe Pulizzi:
I love to write dialogue. It's my favorite thing. And, and then wrapping things up. So I was very aware of ah not to leave anything hanging. And, and also to, to make sure that inciting incident happens as quickly as possible. I had a lot of friends who, who read, you know, early drafts and whatnot that said, Hey, you need to need to move this up a little bit or whatever. And so that was really important where almost immediately I want ah something to happen that, happened that, that gets the,
Joe Pulizzi:
of the audience involved and in this case it would be my wife, yeah.
Robert Riggs:
where your murder is set in a in the ah funeral home, in a funeral home industry. And one of the things that appealed to me about the story is that I'd recently done an interview with a ah veteran Texas prison warden about the worst of the worst he had had during his career. And one was a ah an owner of a chain of funeral homes in East Texas, very bright, charming guy. So charming that when the, My friend was warden. The, this guy would, was the administrative assistant, you know, inmates run the prisons here in one sense, but, uh, he had gotten into drug smuggling. He had a pilot's license and, uh, he got, um, got caught because he was getting divorced and his wife to be turned him in.
Robert Riggs:
And he got out on bail and realized she had done this and he killed her. But then he used the funeral home and this apparatus and that everything in there to dissolve her body. And as the warden said, down the drain, she went.
Robert Riggs:
So give us the, without giving it away, give us the plot of your story.
Joe Pulizzi:
Sure.
Joe Pulizzi:
ah So yeah, as you said, it takes place in a in a funeral home and ah base the main character's name is Will Pollitt. And Will Pollitt's father, Abe, is a funeral director who ah who passes away ah through somewhat mysterious circumstances. And as Will comes back to, Will, by the way, is an advertising manager, marketing manager of ah of an agency, ah comes back home to Sandusky, Ohio, where the
Joe Pulizzi:
uh... where the murders take place and basically just starts to figure out okay well i gotta take over dad's business now and and i've you know i i've got to get things in order but as will's doing that realizes there's uh... some things that don't add up correctly and will realizes that there might be things going on in Sandusky ohio that are quite right and down the rabbit hole will goes goes and will has uh... a very close friend, Robbie, who helps, and and his ex-wife, Sam.
Joe Pulizzi:
ah who's also involved in the funeral industry and basically the three musketeers, they go out to figure out what's going on with this mystery and deep seedy corruption in the city of in the peaceful city of Sandusky, Ohio. So that's basically how it starts and goes through and hopefully, you know, as as you've, as you've said, oh, a fast, fast moving mystery reads really quickly. And you get to the bottom where Somewhat regular people who are very very nice on the outside are doing some really really bad things.
Robert Riggs:
And of course, that's what drives my true crime podcast. You you see so much.
Joe Pulizzi:
You'd never, yeah that's, that's, that's kind of what I think you, you found and I found is, is that when you see somebody that does something horribly, it's just, wow, on the outside, that was such a nice person, such a nice man, such a wonderful woman.
Robert Riggs:
um
Joe Pulizzi:
They gave back to the community. They went to church. And of course, uh, you know, you peel back the layers and you find that, that it's not all quite what they've lived up to be. So.
Robert Riggs:
So ah it sounds like Will is inspired by Joe and marketing. What ah what about the the funeral home? Why the funeral home industry setting? Did you already know something about it?
Joe Pulizzi:
So I grew up in in the funeral home industry. My ah grandfather was a funeral director. It was his business when he started working in the 20s. He started working for a gentleman named Fry in Sandusky. So this is not basically but based on anything real, but I do use this city and and the things that I learned about the funeral industry.
Robert Riggs:
Sure.
Joe Pulizzi:
as part of the story and so and my grandfather Leo Groff was ah one of the one of the most amazing individuals ever and I was blessed with when I started working. uh, 15, 16, 17 year olds. And I, and I was figuring out my way around a funeral home. I had my grandfather who was basically retired at the time he was my teacher. So he started to teach me about the funeral business before I actually started to go out on calls or, you know, um be involved in the embalming setting when I was 18 to 21. And I was infatuated by it.
Joe Pulizzi:
Um, because unlike a lot of people when they go into the funeral setting and they're very hesitant and they don't know what to make of it, I feel very at home because I was five, six, seven years old running around a funeral home. And, uh, it's where I realized that funeral directors are, are perhaps the funniest people on the planet because they have to be, um, Because they you you can't if you i think if you really ah look at what you're doing every day and you take it too seriously, it can take a toll on you spiritually and emotionally. So you can't, you almost have to. One example, and I think I use this in the book, is it's you you it's never he or she. They never use pronouns. It's always, you know, Mr. Smith or it's the body.
Joe Pulizzi:
And that that once that person has passed away, you sort of detach the humanity, if you will, so you can get through the whole process. so And so I just I knew that environment. And of course, they always say, you know, you you write about what you know, I know a lot about marketing, and I know a lot about funeral homes. So I sort of mash those two together. And the other thing is, and you and I have talked about this before, if you're going to create content, you should, you should have some differentiation as part of it. And I had not read
Joe Pulizzi:
a lot of mysteries or thrillers are known about a lot of mysteries or thrillers that had the protagonist as a marketing professional. And not a lot.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
No, not a lot in funeral homes. I mean, there's some and it's maybe a little bit more ah than it used to be. But I said, I don't think there's ever been like a marketing funeral home mashup in a mystery. So I said, let's let's go to town on that one and see if we can separate ourselves a bit.
Robert Riggs:
So what was the reaction to the family since they are in the business where they, any concerns that, well, they might think this happened here with us.
Joe Pulizzi:
Well, I'll, ah I'll be completely honest with you, Robert, I, I wrote this. And I was so excited for my uncle, ah which was my grandfather's son to to read this and and um it initially came out as an audio book. I think you remember this, I launched it as an audio book first and then printed did the ebook and the print version ah about three months after that. And so I had my family listen to the initial audio version and I was very excited because I've sort of like a love letter to my to my family and they did not like it at all. ah And that's putting it lightly. So um I don't know what more to say about that is they ah they thought that I was making fun
Joe Pulizzi:
of the which I'm which I've not and I never have been and I sort of ah I'm proud of ah the the people the funeral directors i I love the service that they provide and I it sort of was in my view was a love letter but some people didn't take it that way and there's nothing I could do about that I don't know if I would change or do anything differently but I was a little disappointed that the family didn't appreciated as much as as I do. So that that was the one that was the one downside in the one area that I didn't expect ah to have happen.
Robert Riggs:
d Do you think you'll stay with a funeral home setting? Because I really find it interesting. You know, we've got the case here in Texas, Bernie, the funeral home director who everyone loved and he was stealing from the wealthy widow and then murders her and stashes her away in a deep freeze. yeah know you I'm sure you know the story.
Joe Pulizzi:
I've heard of it. Yes.
Robert Riggs:
Oh my God, it's it's a terrific, interesting, interesting story and because it's so different. we you know We don't have that much contact with the funeral home. Do you think you'll stay with that setting?
Joe Pulizzi:
um So I'm working on the outline. So just as as I have, you know, you switch careers a lot, done a lot of different things, I do a lot of different things as well, or I'm trying to. So once I wrote the novel, I went back and started dabbling back into marketing, and I'm sort of going back on the novel side now. And I've just begun to write out some many chapters and outlines for the next book and the is probably not as much of the plot or ah as it used as it was in the original, but it is still part of i mean I'm using the same characters.
Joe Pulizzi:
they're still in the same positions. ah But i I heard the same type of feedback that you're giving me right now is it's so interesting to people, they love the inner workings of what happens inside a funeral home, the embalming process, the cleanup, the pickup, going to get the, but you know, ah everything about that, ah that happens. So, so the the short answer is the short answer it to is yes, I think it'll still be involved.
Robert Riggs:
You know, I could see some plots where bodies are coming to the funeral home and the funeral home director and the embalmers are realizing, Hey, this wasn't a natural death. This was murder, you know, and starting their own investigations.
Joe Pulizzi:
there' there's You're right, there's so there's so many places that you can go. And it's interesting, of the although Will will Robbie and and Sam are not private investigators, they sort of act like private investigators in the first ah and the first novel of the world to die. And they're just curious people, and they know enough to be dangerous. and they have a lot of friends to help them along the way and and so i like that uh you know not that that's harry potter esque but you know if you wanted to make a comparison you take the three of those from harry potter and they're always curious and inquisitive and something's going wrong and you take those three and you put them into the funeral home atmosphere and crazy crazy things can happen
Robert Riggs:
Well, for our listeners, uh, given an understanding of what goes into that that novel, crime novel they'll be reading on the beach of what it takes to do it.
Joe Pulizzi:
So i when I start a business book, I don't want to say it's easy, but it's much easier for me to do that because I have a very specific idea of what the informational needs are of my audience. In this case, I've been living in the marketing industry forever, so I'm targeting targeting marketers. Here's what they need to know. here's how I'm coming at it from my point of view. And then I start to write out what are chapters look like. And then you take all those chapters and you put them into sections. ah It was much more difficult for me because I couldn't come up with the outline. Because I didn't know where the story was going to go.
Joe Pulizzi:
And I wanted it. I really wanted an outline. And I thought, and I actually, I'm going back to that process because I've been reading and watching a lot of what James Patterson does. And James Patterson is a big believer in outlines. And I think that's a easier place to start than just sitting at my computer, just waiting for the spirit to develop. And then I can start to type this thing up. So ah but what I did with this one is I realized that I ah had an idea for how this thing was going to start the inciting incident. And where it would go from there, I didn't have the ending worked out, but I had a good like starting point and middle. And I had to just sit down at my computer and start writing. And it wasn't until I got to about the four week process, Robert, where I felt I had anything usable. And if I go back to the initial
Joe Pulizzi:
writings and chapters, I would probably say there was hardly anything in that first four weeks that I ended up using. But it's almost like whether you're going to run a marathon or you're going to the gym, you need to work those muscles and you need to get yourself in shape. And that's what I needed to do. And for whatever reason, a month, it took about a month for me to get in shape until I started to feel I had something going. And then I got into a rhythm. where every morning I would spend two to three hours in front of the computer and write generally between 500 and 2000 finished words a day. And after about two to three months, I had the initial draft done. So it was six months of, I have no idea how to write this novel, where am I gonna go? And this is not as easy as writing a business to business book.
Joe Pulizzi:
to, I'm starting to write this process. I'm terrible. I'm never going to do this. Nobody's ever going to read this thing to, Oh my God, I can't believe what this character just did. I had no idea. I remember there was one moment when I really thought I was onto something and I was feeling good about it. I came downstairs and I went to Talked to my wife about it. And I said, you have no idea what will did today. And she's like, what are you talking about? What will you don't you i mean you're the right don't you know, I said, No, I had no idea was going to go that direction. And that's what was new and different about this process versus writing a nonfiction book is because I know exactly where I'm going.
Joe Pulizzi:
in a nonfiction book. ah In a fiction novel, sometimes the characters do whatever they do. And I don't, you know, it just, it just comes out onto of the page, but you have to get to that point. And that's what I didn't know before Robert is is putting in the time and effort and get into rhythm.
Robert Riggs:
Uh huh.
Joe Pulizzi:
And that's where somebody like ah James Patterson, it works wonderfully, because they never get out of shape. They get up every morning, three hours, four hours, and they write and they're never out of shape.
Robert Riggs:
yes
Joe Pulizzi:
And that when i and i And I run half marathons and I ran a marathon last year. And that makes perfect sense to me saying, I can't go out tomorrow and run a marathon if I don't train for it. You can't go out tomorrow and write a novel unless you train yourself for it. So 30 days, two months of training, get you into the point where three or four months later you have a first draft of a novel.
Robert Riggs:
Now that you're into this, what is your sense about why we are so intrigued by murder, men and women?
Joe Pulizzi:
Um, that is a great question. I think that, let me, I'll give you another, I'll give you an example that happened with one of my friends is happening now. There is one woman in our friend group that is very straight lace. She's very, she's, she never does anything questionable. Uh, you'd never see her say a ah naughty word, if you will. Uh, prim and proper, I guess would be a good way to to describe it. She loves reading the smuttiest, most horrific, pornographic romance you would ever imagine. I use that as an example, because I think it's an escape for a lot of people. I think it's like I, you know, you what you want, you don't want to go and be at the beach, as you said, a breach read and read about you working in an office.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
if they came from an office. You want to read something outlandish, something exciting, something that they would never possibly get involved with. um Take them away from whatever the worries of the current were. So that that's kind of what my thinking is. ah Because when i my my wife is a huge reader. She usually has two or three novels going on at a time. And it's probably read every one of Patterson's books that have been out there. It is a real escape for her and I see that she has less stress during her day if she's had a chance to spend 30 or 45 minutes at least reading a little bit of a novel. So from that standpoint, I think that and ah some people actually need that. They need that escape.
Joe Pulizzi:
And I think that that's what it is. And i it's it's funny that the whole romance novel with my my other friend that I would have never expected that. But that's something that that's her that's her escape. And so I think the same thing goes for for murder novels.
Robert Riggs:
You.
Robert Riggs:
Well, one of the things I've seen based on research is that in periods of anxiety and stress, a lot of that these days, the appetite for crime novels and true crime increases significantly.
Joe Pulizzi:
And why do you why do you think that is? Is that just because it is a de-stressor? It does relieve that anxiety?
Robert Riggs:
Well, like yeah, maybe you feel like that it if you're reading police procedurals and and
Joe Pulizzi:
Yeah.
Robert Riggs:
you know, where there is an ending and stuff, maybe it restores faith that things will get better. Things will work their way out. Um, now my interest in what I do, I'm really interested in what makes these criminals tick the mind of the murderer. And I think deep down that many people are like, do I know somebody like that? Or could that, person in bed with me, my spouse or significant other.
Joe Pulizzi:
Mm
Robert Riggs:
Could they have murder on their heart? You know, that sort of thing.
Joe Pulizzi:
hmm.
Robert Riggs:
Um, but Hey, I did want to tell you, I want to share with you cause I'm always doing research and stuff, but I was reading PD James, the great British, uh, true crime writer from gosh, 19th century, something like that. But what I really found interesting, she says the most dangerous emotion is love. And she says the L word covers all motives for murder, love, lust, loathing, and looser, which is the love of money. And I thought that really kind of sums it up. I mean, those, those are part of every kind of true crime story and ah and also in crime novels that you encounter.
Joe Pulizzi:
I love that. That's that sounds perfect. Absolutely. And it's what's funny is is that ah that that's probably the same for the world to die. It involved money issues, ah love, ah un unrequited love, um loss of some kind. Yes, absolutely. To a T.
Robert Riggs:
I interviewed an author here recently that, uh, does crime novels. They're really very closely based on real criminal cases, but he'll change things. But what really is God, he's astonished me. He just sits down at the typewriter and starts no outline. Nothing just starts going and wherever it may. And wow. that's That's some discipline right there.
Joe Pulizzi:
You know, it's interesting. I love that. There's no one. So there's no one right way to write a novel in my experience and then reading, you know, even on writing by Stephen King or wherever you whatever you look up to to the novelists. The only thing that is the same thing that runs throughout all these novelists is they do it every day. they do it consistently over a long period of time. ah Some of them use novels, some of them just sit down, some of them have five going at a time, some of them just work on one and then work on the next one. But that so they're all different except for that. Sometime during the day, they sit down in front of a typewriter or a computer and they write. And so and that's where I'd like any if you want to do it, anybody can do it, we just have to put in the work and the time.
Robert Riggs:
I try to block out the calendar with quiet time in the mornings. Uh, the phone is off everything. And well, cause I, you know, do a lot of research as well and stuff, but for the writing, you got to tune everything else out.
Joe Pulizzi:
Yeah, I think first thing in the morning it's it works the same for me. I'm very it's very difficult for me in the afternoon at all to write something that will end up ah being a thing it's like for and and I think a lot of it is is that whatever's
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
in in my writing career, ah if I set myself to do this every morning, whatever happens while I'm sleeping in the middle of the night, I generally if I if I'm programming myself this way, it works in my favor so that when I get up and I'll get my cup of coffee and I'll sit down and um and I'm ready to go and whatever was working the night before just starts to unleash itself on the page. Uh, which I don't know why that works. You probably do more than I do, but you get into that rhythm and then you need it.
Joe Pulizzi:
And you feel like if you skip a day, you've done something bad, just like I didn't go work out today.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
So that you need to do that every day.
Robert Riggs:
I am the benefactor of of honing the craft over so many years in newsrooms where it's chaos, absolute chaos. And in television news, people might not realize this, you write for the ear and If you go into, it went into a large television newsroom and on deadlines, everybody's talking out loud to themselves because they're writing as, how does this sound? You know, turning phrases, you'd walk in there and think I've walked into an asylum or something, but that has been helpful for me. Just, you know, uh, covering the white house, other places, and then, you know, as you sit there having to write a story,
Robert Riggs:
on a notepad or something in chaos is very helpful. But now I really, I value the quiet time and no distractions. You just can't have distractions and do this.
Joe Pulizzi:
Well, and then the other thing is to if you a lot of people, they get up in the morning and they'll look at email or social. Oh, that's a big no no, you cannot you cannot let your brain go there.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah. yeah
Joe Pulizzi:
You have to send the go right, go spend your quiet time, go do whatever you have to do. And then you can push that off the later. It's very tough on the inspirational process if you if you let that come between you and your your writing.
Joe Pulizzi:
When I was probably all the way up to 30, I was not a reader of a tremendous amount of books. And my wife got me hooked on it. I think it was some vacation we went on and I got, boy, I really liked that mystery. I think it was a Grisham book or something like that. And I'm like, wow, I really, I like myself better when I'm reading these books. I like how my mind works a little bit better.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
So I always have a book going now. and always try to spend at least 20 minutes a day or more into some kind of a book. I just think I'm a better person. But I think that from there, I don't know why it's it's not a direct tie either. If I'm reading something and I get an idea, it's just for whatever reason, I got into that state of reading a book, and my brain goes in a different direction. And then I'll go ahead and I'll write the note down so that I can come back to it later. Or I've got the I've got the note As I do a lot of thinking in the shower as well, and we've got we put a little notepad up in the shower because I make notes on that as well. Who knows? you know you I want to make sure that I take it down whenever I can. The idea ah comes into my head.
Robert Riggs:
Do you ever find yourself thinking, uh, wow, you know, I might could get away with this. am I might could get away with a real crime like this.
Joe Pulizzi:
no um No, but I do say I think this is going to happen or I think it could happen. Like I, with the will to die, I really believe that that stuff could happen. Like everything that happened in that book, I believe that it could happen or I've heard somebody talk about it or I've seen something ah around it happen.
Robert Riggs:
Mm hmm.
Joe Pulizzi:
I don't want to ever say, oh my God, there's no way. um And a lot of the book involved technology. So even in, you know, so it's been five years since I've really worked on that book, I'd have to, I'd have to really think differently about how I would and employ technology. and And actually, I'm really, in the next book, um it's going to be interesting, especially with all the AI stuff that comes in, because if I'm talking about marketing and what's going on with AI, you've got to I've got to really be careful. I don't want to date the book because Oh, technology only happened during this this point in time. There was a book that I read recently. I don't know if it was a
Joe Pulizzi:
I can't remember which one it was i to get back down it but there it took place in 1994 1995 before like heavy usage of cell phones or social media and I was like wow that's a great place that's just a perfect place because you you didn't have like you didn't know where people were
Robert Riggs:
Hmm. Mm hmm.
Joe Pulizzi:
You didn't have that tracking technology and other things, so it's a fun place. I would i would be interested in going back to a time. That's why when we were in the book, when I would write in the 70s or in the 80s, it's enjoyable. There's no cell phones going on. There's no social media. There's no technology. It's like we're going out. People don't know where we're at. There's a lot of freedom when you can write without those constraints.
Robert Riggs:
Well, there there was one thing in the will to die that struck a responsive chord with him. I'm not going to give the story away, but it is the, the buying of life insurance policies that's happened to real life, those abuses.
Joe Pulizzi:
So no, so that that actually comes from I said we sat down with ah with our insurance agent years ago, and they brought up this reverse life
Robert Riggs:
So yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
insurance thing, ah you know, again, against your real ah or reverse insurance against real estate property and the whole thing, which a lot of people do, unfortunately, and I didn't know about it at the time. And I started researching and like, Oh, my God, this is a thing. And oh, my God, there's people that are really getting taken advantage of. I'm like, Oh, I could see this, this happening. And of course, and inserted that in. So again, to your point, a lot of these things could happen are happening. I just don't want to be the one doing it.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah, I've got a recent episode up about a series of murders in Malibu and the perpetrator. It was all about insurance. And yet even his family had a long, long history of insurance fraud. He had learned from the best, except he elevated his to life insurance murders. And he, the one that really gets him caught, he's got a, an $800,000 life insurance policy that he just has paid off a few weeks before his wife and stepson, pretty new wife, mysteriously drowned while they're out with him.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
That's terrible. Yeah, absolutely.
Robert Riggs:
Yeah.
Joe Pulizzi:
It's crazy.
Robert Riggs:
Well, I appreciate you talking with us. And before we close out here, I want you to give a ah pitch for your Orange Foundation. Tell my listeners what you do and and how they can help out.
Joe Pulizzi:
Oh, thank you so much. Yeah. ah The Orange Effect Foundation, the orange effect.org. E f F e c t. ah We've been working on this ah little cause my wife and I, ah since 2007. Our son at the time we did this was six years old now is almost 23, but was diagnosed on the autism spectrum. ah When we got into that process realized that how difficult it was we had the means which was great we had intensive speech.
Joe Pulizzi:
and play therapy ah and came through that whole process, went went through a tutor in a school until eight years old, then didn't need one, started saying more and more words, and really is is doing wonderfully well because of that speech and play therapy. And then during that process, we found out a lot of families couldn't afford that. A lot of families who their kids are diagnosed, they really need this speech therapy and they can't get it because insurance doesn't cover it and they need to put food on the table. And that's tragic if you can't get that therapy that you need. So we created Orange Effect Foundation to be a sort of a last resort for people who who can't, people, families.
Joe Pulizzi:
kids who can't get this type of therapy or technology. So we've been doing this officially as a 501c3 since 2014. And we have grants out to over 400 kids in 39 states. And we just raise as much money as we can to make sure that these kids get the speech therapy they need to be whatever kind of normal they want to be, just so they can communicate more effectively. And it's, ah it's a passion we all have. And if anybody's interested, just look us up at the orange effect.org and And we fundraise all year long and have been for the last 18 years.
Robert Riggs:
I'll add my insights from my reporter's notebook for years in the prison systems. I've seen so many cases of inmates that have learning differences, speech difficulties and all of that it contributed to the reason they're in prison. And if we can get these people help as children, you know, we're going to, it'll be one last prison bed that taxpayers have to take care of. So Joe, thank you again for joining us.
Joe Pulizzi:
That's so true. yeah Thank you, Robert.
Robert Riggs:
Appreciate you.
Joe Pulizzi:
I really appreciate it.
