Robert Riggs
Many U.S. prisons are trade schools for crime. High recidivism rates underscore the failure of the current criminal justice system.
Released and rearrested inmates pass through an expensive revolving door.
The Texas prison used to be called the Texas Department of Corrections (TDC), but there was little evidence it was correcting bad behavior.
In Texas, nearly one-fourth of the prisoners released return within three years. Nationally, half of the prisoners released return within three years.
But the Prison Entrepreneurship Program (PEP), an independent nonprofit organization in Texas, puts inmates who are within one to three years of parole eligibility on the path to jobs and even running a business. Less than 7% of its graduates return to prison within three years.
500 participants are chosen yearly out of more than 10,000 eligible inmates. The screening process, which is more selective than prestigious universities, includes a 20-page application, three exams, and an interview with PEP staff members.
Death row inmates or those convicted of sex crimes are not eligible.
The program exposes them to PEP’s ten driving values: fresh-start outlook, servant-leader mentality, love, innovation, accountability, integrity, execution, fun, excellence, and wise stewardship.
The entrepreneurship program starts with a three-month Leadership Academy that teaches character development and computer skills.
Next, they take a rigorous six-month “mini-MBA” course taught by staff, volunteer business executives, and college students.
Baylor University’s Hankamer School of Business has been working with PEP since 2007. It awards certificates of Entrepreneurship at the program’s graduation ceremonies.
All of the inmates who have graduated get a job within 90-days of walking out of prison. 300 businesses have been launched by more than 1,500 PEP graduates. Six of those companies generate more than $1 million in annual sales. Nearly half of the grads own homes within three years of their release.
Bryan Kelley, the CEO of PEP, has himself “walked the line” in the prison system. Kelley served 22 years of a life sentence for a drug-related murder.
Investigative reporter Robert Riggs spent a decade in every corner of the prison system, exposing corruption in the Texas parole system.
Riggs interviews Kelley about the life-changing Prison Entrepreneurship Program.
Robert Riggs
During my investigation of corruption in the Texas parole system, which exposed how serial killer Kenneth McDuff got out of prison under a cloud of corruption, I visited almost every maximum security prison in the state over a 10-year period. I saw very little there that would make a difference in a person's life when they came out to have real change. The only program I ever saw that I thought might be working was Chuck Colson's prison fellowship program. Then Governor George W. Bush had allowed the program to come in the prisons under objections from the non-faith community, but it was the one thing I saw. And I was in a prison one day, and what really struck me is in a day room on one side the inmates were yelling and screaming, watching the NBA Finals, and on the other side they were having Bible study. So this was a program that also involved people from the outside, or what inmates call the free world. There was a time when the Texas prison system was called the Texas Department of Corrections. I never saw much going on in those places that quote corrected people, but I'm going to tell you about a program that a friend of mine has been involved in that says that it does bring change, and he calls it from convicts to CEO, and I have the CEO here of the Prison Entrepreneurship Program, Brian Kelly. Brian, thank you for joining
Bryan Kelley
us, Robert. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Is
Robert Riggs
rehabilitation possible in prison systems across this country today?
Bryan Kelley
Most assuredly, it is possible. I would say it's rare at times, but it's certainly possible.
Robert Riggs
And why so rare?
Bryan Kelley
You know, when it really boils down to it, rehabilitation is an inside job. You've got to do that for yourself. No matter what sort of programs, what sort of opportunities are available, until a person is ready to change? No change is going to take place. I've I've often been asked: Is you know are people in prison incorrigible? Are they irredeemable? And my answer to that is you know everybody is redeemable, but not everybody's ready.
Robert Riggs
And in your program, how do you find out they are that they are ready, or do you recruit them, or how do they find out about you and have determined that I need to change my life?
Bryan Kelley
You know, I've got a staff of about 30 employees, 75% of which are ex-felons. They've been inside. They know what it's like. They, we call it. They peep game. They understand when people are trying to manipulate and and pull the wool over anybody's eyes, and so we we know we've got a series of questions. We've got an application for our program, and we're looking for commitment to change, as witnessed in institutional adjustment, things that they've tried to get involved with on the inside, whether that's Bible study, whether that's education, vocational training, perhaps just a good job, or even just commitment to fitness, is there something that they're trying to do positive with their time?
Robert Riggs
Well, one of the things I would see is that there seem to be a widespread absence of cognitive skills of literally how to think, how to know there is cause and effect. If I do this, it might anger somebody. What's your experience?
Bryan Kelley
I I would agree with that completely. I've always said that our day rooms across Texas and I expect across the country are filled with men with great creative ideas of how their lives might change, but for the most part, they are delusional solutions. There are cockamamie ideas that are never going to work. They don't understand that, though. They've got this pipe dream, this pie in the sky idea of how how things are going to unfold, and and they're just not true. And so we bring in folks from the business community, successful businessmen and women who help them think through their ideas and make sure that they have somebody that helps them with critical thinking skills.
Robert Riggs
Well, and as you do that, there has to be a change in their value system. How do they come to recognize that they do need. There needs to be an interchange, or when they reach you, have they already made that decision?
Bryan Kelley
No, they usually haven't. They they're typically not living by a new value system. That's one of the things that we instill to very onset. So we start out with character assessment and development, and the very first assignment that we give somebody in PEP is write your eulogy if you die today and be honest. Let's take a critical look at what would be said about your life today if you passed away, and I want the guys to come to grips with that, and then I want them to see that we can write a different eulogy if you'll prepare. Can help you do that, and so we start instilling character traits that are indicative of successful people. Things like accountability, integrity, wise stewardship, love, excellence, execution, and so those are things that we're constantly reinforcing, and and we're also celebrating when they show up, and so we're trying to instill things that successful people typically have in common.
Robert Riggs
Well, and you know of which you speak here because you've been there, and I want our listeners to know that sitting across the table from you, you'd pass for any CEO or owner of a major business in this city, but you used to wear that white suit,
Bryan Kelley
dirty white suit.
Robert Riggs
Yes,
Bryan Kelley
I did. I did almost 22 years in prison on a murder charge. I had a life sentence under the legislature that I was convicted of. That life sentence was not without parole. There was parole eligibility. I actually came up for parole 13 times and made it that 13th time shortly after clearing the 20-year mark. And it was interesting after 12 reviews and being told every time that I'm doing everything just right. Keep it up. Denied. The 13th time was different. My parole commissioner was telling me what parole was going to be like for me when I got out, and I'm sitting here thinking, "Wow, this guy's telling me I've made parole. And at the end, he said, "Any questions, mr. Kelly? I said, "Yes, sir. I've got one. And he said, "What is it? And I said, "Will you give me parole next year? And he looked at me. He said, "I don't understand. Are you asking me to stay in prison for another year? And I said, "Well, yes, sir. He said, "Why would you do that? And I said, "I'd like to go through the prison entrepreneurship program and develop a business plan that I've got and interact with their their business folks. The only way I can do that is if you give me a hard release date for next year, so I have time to complete the program, and I can be housed on that pre-release unit. And he looked at me for what I bet was 60 seconds. He just stared at me, didn't blink, and finally he said, "Let me look into that. And he gave me exactly what I asked for. I bargained for an extra year in prison to go through the program that I now lead.
Robert Riggs
And what had happened inside of you that you thought you needed that?
Bryan Kelley
I, you know, I had been introduced to the prison entrepreneurship program through the founder, Catherine Rohrer, at the time, and she recognized after starting a program and using entrepreneurship as a vehicle for change in the lives of these men, recognizing that from their survival on the street, they know a lot about business, they know about supply chains and risk management, profit margins, marketing, sales, collections, reading people, recognizing opportunities, and she thought she could transform that hustle into something positive, so they're providing opportunities to add value instead of taking advantage of people, and that's proven to be true. But she recognized she couldn't be in a prison every day, so she recruited some inmate shepherds, if you will, to be the day-to-day orchestrators of the program, and I always got to be one of those for a short number of months. So I, I had been introduced to PEP, and I got to see it behind the curtain. I saw how real it was, and and I desperately wanted to be a part of it. We were just about to transfer to a different unit, a pre-release unit, and when we did, I wasn't able to go because I had too much time. I couldn't be housed on that unit, so I got to go do about six or seven years in the wilderness or back in the jungle of the regular prison. And so, when I had that opportunity with parole, I saw that extra year on my time in PPP as an investment in my future, it was totally worth it. But it's you know it's not fair because I'd seen behind the curtain. I knew what I was getting.
Robert Riggs
So I know you spent some time on the wind unit, used to be called the wind farm. And for our listeners in in Texas, there was a time when the prisons were self sustaining, and they raised crops and animals, you name it. And the inmates worked the fields, and they were all called farms. But the wind unit, when I was there, they were refurbishing school busses for school districts, stamped out license plates. There were other programs there. Typically, not just wind unit or Texas or, but across the country, did those kind of work programs contribute to success in getting out of you've learned a skill and they're doing something?
Bryan Kelley
You know, I think it it depends, Robert. It depends on how much you really invest yourself into that. Now, I worked at the sign shop at the Win Unit for about 12 years. It's part of Texas Correctional Industries,
Robert Riggs
and these are the high. Highway signs,
Bryan Kelley
highway signs. Well, at the Beto unit, they do the highway signs. We were doing the smaller signs, office signs, all the way down to name tags and things like that. I got to do graphic layout and laser engraving, and so I got to channel some creativity in a place that's completely gray and dingy white, and you know everything's the same, and so I loved that, and I really dove into it and learned some valuable and marketable business skills in doing that, and and even managed a team of people and and brought them together to to churn out some product for TCI, and I loved it. But I would say most people in prison don't have a job that they dive into like that and try to learn a skill set that's going to be applicable when they get out. You know, most of them are working in the fields with an oversized hoe that they call an Aggie, or they're working in the chow hall or a laundry, or they're working as a janitor, and things like that. And I'm not sure that those are adequately preparing people for release. But there are jobs on the inside that help prepare people for you know a work set and work skill set.
Robert Riggs
The public does expect these institutions to be punitive, to be severe, you know, you need to pay a price. And I know in some of the stories I did, when I would talk about the feedback I got, they people in the public didn't want want them to have TV, no life comforts. Is that is it realistic? Is is the does the punitive nature destroy any opportunity to change anyone. Is there a balance to be struck?
Bryan Kelley
There's got to be a balance struck because if we're sentencing people to decades of misery, they're not going to come out better. They're just not, and so we've got to do something to invest. They're human beings still now. What I've encountered, and almost across the board are backgrounds that have almost guaranteed that they're going to end up in prison. Typically, they come from a community or a family where prison is prevalent, and I've seen studies that said that 70% of children of at least one incarcerated parent will follow suit and go to prison too. In our 18-year history in our program, with over 3,000 graduates, we only know of one child of a PUP graduate who's followed suit, and so we're breaking that generational cycle. But there's such a negative connotation on the inside, that we have got to help prepare them for success post-release. If we don't, we might as well just keep them locked up forever. And I don't think that's in anybody's best interest. 95% of the people who go to prison will one day get out. It's in everybody's best interest that they're able to get out and contribute to society, and not be somebody that we're fearful of,
Robert Riggs
and then you know there are people fearful of them coming out and working for them and that sort of thing. So how do you how for your graduates how do you deal with that? Of logically, somebody's going to think, oh, you know, they're going to take money from the cash register, that sort of thing,
Bryan Kelley
you know. And sadly, there's a bad track record of that happening. And so we, you know, I mentioned earlier that we're instilling character and value and morals. We need to be able to overcompensate for, I think, what society has concluded will be the case with returning citizens, and demonstrate that we're cut above, that that we're living a different lifestyle now. A few years ago, the the hot button thing was ban the box that you didn't have to declare that you were a felon on an application to give everybody a chance to at least have a verbal
Robert Riggs
interview. We were surprisingly quiet on that debate because I really instill in our participants and our graduates to own your past. Don't belabor it. Show how you've grown from it, and how that is now going to add value because you take that very seriously, and now can can demonstrate a trustworthiness in the workplace over and above even Joe Blow. You know, I in my years of reporting there, I came away feeling that you know we have the largest prison system in the world. There are people that need to be there that are what I saw with a career violent psychopaths, but it seemed to me to be a monument of some kind of failure in our society, in our families, in our educational system. From the your perspective, what's your view?
Bryan Kelley
You know, I've been on several prison units, both as an inmate and as a. A volunteer returning, trying to foster hope and a new future. And what I find in most of our prisons is just a monument to hopelessness. Everybody is stuck in the muck and the mire that they have chosen for their lives, and they don't know the way out. They desperately want out. They just don't know how, and so that's what we try to do with the prison entrepreneurship program: is recognize that hey, you've got creativity, you've got good ideas. They're probably delusional solutions. Let's bring in a new foundation of values and morals. Let's facilitate your ideas into a place that is a executable plan, where you know you can do something different with your life, with a community surrounding you that will help you think through that and get over the challenges that you're typically going to face, and and we found just remarkable successes in our 18 year history. Our average recidivism rate is 8%
Robert Riggs
So, but you're a nonprofit. Is this something that's too expensive for an institution, or there's not? They can't think that way.
Bryan Kelley
I I can't speak for them. You know, Brian Collier and TDCJ. They they've got a tough job, and having seen it from both sides of the fences. It's it's difficult. All all I can tell you is we've had a remarkable track record of turning lives around using the vehicle of entrepreneurship, and and it's interesting at the onset of every class I share with the men that are coming into our program and say, you know, from your very spot on the street. You know a lot about these business concepts, and and the definition of an entrepreneur is somebody who recognizes a gap or a problem in society, but doesn't see it as a problem. He sees it as an opportunity to make money or make a difference. You guys are natural entrepreneurs. You recognize opportunities. You've just done that to take advantage of people in the past. If we turn that on its head, and you can provide value where you see opportunity, you can shine and be a success in life, and be able to look in the mirror and be able to look in your son or daughter's eyes and see the pride in their eyes. Don't you want to have? The
Robert Riggs
other thing, when I look back on my experiences in hindsight, now I realize that I met a lot of men with learning differences that went undiagnosed or they didn't deal with it in in school, and I wondered how much that had to do with a lot of them getting there. The ones it was just bad decision making.
Bryan Kelley
You know, it's it's a little bit of both, and I think the overcall educational level of men in Texas prisons, at least, are is right around eighth grade educational level, and that's not any different for the men who go through prison entrepreneurship program. Although we teach at a collegiate level, even supplemented with graduate school case studies, about 50 to 55% of our guys will have or be working on a GED, and so the study skill levels of men in prison is as abysmal. We really have to teach them how to learn, and so you know the our there. While there's educational opportunities in prison, and actually I earned a bachelor's degree on the inside. I think we need to do more.
Robert Riggs
Tell me about some of your your success stories. Do you have graduates that are out running their own businesses.
Bryan Kelley
Oh yes, we've had over 600 businesses started by ex felons who've been released from prison and launched their their business idea. Probably in the neighborhood of 20 or 30 had revenues or sales over a million dollars last year. Just some amazing stories. A few years ago, we started launching a showcase pitch event. We're alternating from between Dallas and Houston. The first one was the George Bush Center right here on the SMU campus, and we put three guys on stage pitching for about $250,000 in growth capital. Our winner, Reuben, that night won $100,000, and this is right before COVID. This was November of 19. He just wowed the crowd because he he went into prison, a young Hispanic male, had never had a job, sold drugs, encountered PP, embrace the the values and the and and the idea of entrepreneurship. When he got out, he recognized with no job skills, he he decided to go to West Texas to go to the oil fields and try to earn as much as he could with you know just labor as a as a skill set. And and his boss loved him because of his work ethic, because of his trustworthiness, because of his conscientiousness and loyalty to somebody who gave him a chance. After a few months, they were out servicing an oil well. The truck broke down, and so Reuben called the shop and said, "Hey, you need to come fix the shop, fix my truck. And the shop said, "Hey, we're swamped right now. It's going to be five days at best before we can get to it. And he was thinking, "I need to be working this whole time. So he got on YouTube, learned how to fix the truck himself, and did it. And his boss recognized, "You have got mechanical aptitude. What if I get you some training? And Reuben's like, "I'm all about that, please. And so they did. Moved him in the shop. He very quickly moved up to shop foreman, and then the entrepreneur came out in him. He started recognizing gaps in the preventative maintenance and service industry out there. Launched his own business that serviced the trucks that serviced the oil wells, recognizing that he was going to be even recession proof and oil and gas did 1,000,009 first year 300 net. That night he he just blew the crowd away. He won the 100 grand. He was going to build a shop. I mean, just within a month or two after that, COVID came slamming down, and he recognized a different opportunity. He didn't build a shop. He increased his fleet, and if I remember right, I did three eight last year, and so and has hired some PEP brothers. So he's creating jobs. He's infusing cash into our communities where he used to be a drain on our tax base. He's now a contributor.
Robert Riggs
Let me ask you about your biggest disappointment that surprised you and what went wrong.
Bryan Kelley
You know, we have business plan competitions on the inside, basically Shark Tank for prisoners, and we bring in successful businessmen and women, and they have so much fun in doing that. and And it strikes me that some of our most skilled, best speaking, event-winning contestants struggle the most, and one guy got out, and there were so many people that were excited about his business plan. They wanted to invest in him. We discourage equity investments. We would rather do debt financing, but there's an extra layer of insulation, I think, of protection for everybody. But he got out. A lot of people were super excited about him. He was staying in our transitional house here in Dallas, and I got wind that he was drinking, and that's we've got zero tolerance for that. So, and you know, I talked to him about it, and of course, he denied it, and then very quickly moved out of the transitional house. But he moved in with an executive, not one of ours, an executive for a company here in Dallas. He had apparently kind of pulled the I don't know the wool over a lady's eyes and moved in with her. Was in a relationship and started using harder drugs, smoking crack. So she called me and said, "I just want you to know that I've kicked Robert out and he's smoking crack. And I said, "Well, thank you, thank for the information. I'm not completely surprised, but if you talk to him. Tell him to come and talk to me. All right. About a week later, she sent me a picture on her phone. He was he was robbing banks here in town, and they had a picture of him handing a note to tell her. And so I just shook my head and I told her. I said, you know, if you talk to him, please tell him to give himself up before somebody gets hurt, and I'm happy to help with that. So a few days later, I was actually at Dallas Country Club for an event, and she texted me and she said, "Robert's ready to give himself up, but he'll only do that with you. He's afraid the police are going to shoot him. I said, "Where's he at? And so she gave me an address in South Dallas. I drove down there, and it was very busy intersection. As I was pulling into the address, it was a Walgreens, and I realized he's not here. He's somewhere around here watching me to see who's with me. And I just intuitively knew that. Sure. So he wasn't there. He wasn't in any of the places. On the way there, I contacted the detective in the case, and I said, "Hey, Robert wants to give himself up, and I'm going to get him, and where can I bring him to you? And he said, "Where's he at? And I said, "I don't know yet. Let me get him, and and I'll I'll bring him to you. So after I looked for Robert for a little bit, I was about to leave that area, and I noticed a bunch of cars were pulled into a gas station. There was a guy on the ground, a bunch of people standing around. So I pulled in. It was about six plainclothes cops who had already apprehended Robert, had him on the ground in plastic handcuffs. Apparently, they tracked me from our phone call. That's my only assumption. And as I pulled up, there was this huge detective that was standing over Robert and. I forget his name now, but I said, "You detect him in the case. He goes, "Yeah, are you Brian? I said, "Yes, sir. He goes, "Man, thank you so much. You know, for for helping us apprehend him. I'm like, "I didn't feel like I did much, but yeah, you're welcome. And it's funny they said, "Hey, we need to move our cars. Will you watch him? And I said, "Well, do I get a gun and a badge? They laughed and they said no, and I said, Yeah, I've got you. And it gave me a chance to kind of talk to him. And I said, You know, Robert, I'm glad this is over. You didn't have to go to this level. You know, you've got all the aptitude in the world, but sometimes there's disappointments.
Robert Riggs
And I guess Robert's done. He he earned
Bryan Kelley
an 11-year sentence in in the Fed, so he's probably going to do almost all of that.
Robert Riggs
Right, we're going to pause for a message from our sponsor. We'll be right back. We're talking with Brian Kelly, the CEO of the Prison Entrepreneurship Program in Texas. And Brian, I want to go back to your introduction personally to the prison system. For listeners that know nothing about that world. What was that like the first day when you walked in? Did you have an expectation? Did you know what was coming?
Bryan Kelley
The first day that I walked into prison, yes, I had no idea. I mean, there there'd been a couple of nights that I'd spent the night in jail over, you know, unpaid traffickers or maybe young man being a little too aggressive, and one night I got in a fight, drunken fight, and spent the night in jail. But you know, encountering prison was something different. You know, let me go back to my trial, if you don't mind, sure, because I remember I was standing in the courtroom here in Dallas, and God, it seemed like everybody was looking at me with hatred and condemnation, and I was-I didn't even want to breathe because I felt like it was bringing too much attention to me. And as I stood there, the judge looked at me over his glasses, and he said, "mr. Kelly, a jewelry of your peers has found you guilty of the crime of murder, and sentenced you to life in the same in the state penitentiary. Do you have anything to say for yourself? And as I stood there, I'm I'm just my mind's flashing before my eyes, and I'm I'm thinking back at you know my upbringing and the struggles that we've had in a broken home. My father left, and the lack of discipline, the lack of a solid masculine influence, and and trying to figure out life, and you know and struggling with poverty and the various things that contributed, but it all boiled down to my choice, and I made a horrible choice. And I knew I was guilty, although I'd lied at trial. I knew I was guilty, and I had nothing to say. It was like my voice had been taken away, and I had I didn't say a word. I just stood there trembling, and I knew everything I had come to trust for life-sex, drugs, rock and roll, partying, whatever-was being stripped away. And I knew it was over. I knew the jig was up, and so I ended up doing about three or four months in the county jail, which was horrible the time. We had 50 men in a tank made for 22 fighting like crazy, just packed in like sardines. And it's interesting. A an old school veteran of the judicial system came in one day and he saw just how chaotic it was, and he said, "What if we instituted Friday night call out? And I think everybody on the tank said, "What are you talking about? He said, "Friday night, anybody can fight whoever they want to for any reason, but during the week, let's keep you cool. And we instituted that, and it was amazing how it caused a calmness during the week. And if you had an issue with somebody, you would say, "Hey, I'm gonna look at you on Friday, and so we had entertainment and we had exercise or Friday night fights, and and so that was my introduction, my first few months of what my life sentence, what my life was going to look like, and I thought, you know, this is bizarre. When I went down to the prison system, I went to the Bedo unit at that time. Was rivaled one of the largest prisons in Texas. It was three 500 inmates. The demographic was 18 to 21. At 26, they called me old school, and a lot of angst. A lot of energy, a lot of fighting going on there too. I just the things that I encountered are the racial division, fighting over benches, fighting over TV shows, fighting over who could fight who. It was just I don't know. It was it's a perverse caricature of manhood where you demand respect through violence and threats, and it's just miserable. And I was in a funk. I was in a depression. I hated life. I knew I'd made the choices and earning, you know, what I, the choices I've made. And I, I was hopeless. I was completely hopeless. I was in that cloud of hopeless, like helplessness, like everybody else, and I didn't know the way out.
Robert Riggs
So, how much was it like the movie Shawshank Redemption, where you're always looking over your shoulder?
Bryan Kelley
It's like that. There are safe zones and unsafe zones. Many more unsafe zones, and it's interesting in Texas prisons when you when you first go in, and and I was counseled by a veteran of prisons in the county jail. I asked him, "What's it going to be like for me when I go down there? He said, "Well, first of all, first thing you need to do is when you hit your unit and they're going to give you your mattress, your pillow, all your stuff. You you're going to go to your block. They're going to open up your cell. You go put your stuff up, and you come back out and you go to the day room. Do not stay in your cell. I said, he said, let me tell you. You go back down to the day room. You go to the back wall of the day room. You turn around and get your back against the wall, and you're going to get approached by somebody. They call it the check game. Everybody there wants to know if you'll fight for yourself. The whole day room is watching, and you're typically going to get approached by somebody of a different race, and you fight your ass off. He said, and you will build a reputation. Everybody will know that you'll fight for yourself, and and if you don't do that, Brian, your life sentence is going to be hard to deal with, so go down there. Your first impression to them is going to be huge.
Robert Riggs
So I used to hear of it as hogging, but you're going to have to fight, or everybody's going to take everything you've got, everything. True. And where are the guards during all of this?
Bryan Kelley
They're around, but I mean, the inmates are amazingly adept at recognizing opportunities when you know the guards go down the the cell to go you know get somebody out, and and there's windows of opportunities, and so it's amazing how how good they are at doing that. So,
Robert Riggs
and so if an an inmate gets into your program. Does that go away? Do they are they in kind of a free zone then, and that they have a there are different respect for them?
Bryan Kelley
We throw the typical prison culture on its head. For most of the prisons across the state, Snitches are get stitches, right? Yes. And so you don't tell you mind your own business. You don't tell on other people if you see something, you shut up about it, you let it go. We don't do that. We institute a program of accountability where we are encouraging our guys to be your brother's keeper and pull people to a higher level of behaviors, thinking, and so that takes a bit. We've got to break down the the other. We're kind of counterculture, but we're also racially inclusive, meaning we're bringing the races together. Where yes, in most of the prisons, you sit according to your races. Yes, white guys sit with white guys. Black guys sit with white guys, and you don't cross those boundaries of those big problems. We we put everybody together, and by the end of our program, in just a few months, we're crying together, we're laughing together, we're dancing together, we're doing, we're having life together.
Robert Riggs
You know, when I was doing the reporting on the serial killer Kenneth McDuff, who was a big man, big. They would have to use leg shackles on his wrist. His hands were so big. But I, I interviewed his cellmate from Maximum Security, and I, you know, said, "How bad was he? He said, "Well, you know, in all of his years in prison, he didn't have one single tattoo. He was his own gang. He was a gang of one. And then I talked for the television show. I went back and talked to some guard that knew him on on death row and all, and they said that he would sit alone in the rec yard and at places, and no one came around, and no one bothered him. From the perspective of the inmate culture, what was that? What was what was that reflective of?
Bryan Kelley
You know, go back to the check game, what we called it. You know, once your reputation is established in prison. Not to be messed with, you know. Everybody respects that. They want to know what the pecking order is, and if you are somebody that won't fight for yourself, everybody knows it. And if you're somebody who will defend yourself at all costs, everybody knows it too. So everybody knows who you can mess with and who you can't.
Robert Riggs
Yeah, you know. I also met in the win unit, stamping out license plates. What a what an irony! The the leader of the biggest chop shop gang, and chop shops for our listeners is where they. It's a car theft ring, and they break down the parts, and the parts are worth more than the cars themselves. But this was an enormous operation. It was like he was running a series of McDonald's restaurants, and it struck me. And I talked to him like, "What an irony! But you know, you could have been running a chain of car dealerships. What the heck happened?
Bryan Kelley
You know, I think there are a lot. There's a lot of business acumen. You know, from a street level experience that has got to be transformed into something positive too, and that's why we start out with character assessment development.
Robert Riggs
Is it though? Is it they take think it's the easier route?
Bryan Kelley
Yeah, for most of the guys in prison, I think they've come from from a sense of poverty of of not having enough, and so there's a selfishness of I need to get what I need to get for me in a world that scares me to death, and so there there's something we're trying to overcome in prison entrepreneurship program is that hey, let's don't come at life from a position of scarcity. You've got what it takes. You're going to be okay. You're in a community now. We're going to take care of each other. Let's accentuate the positives. Let's don't panic and think you need to take from others to get what you think you need.
Robert Riggs
So, give me your perspective of this. So, for instance, there's increasing crime rate in Dallas, but there are lots of burglaries, and people are coming home and they're finding their homes plundered and there is this sense of violation and they are angry they're afraid to come back to the house and they want to hang them from the nearest tree. What do what do you say to them?
Bryan Kelley
You know, eye for an eye, yes, it is leaves us all blind.
Robert Riggs
Eye for an eye leaves us all blind,
Bryan Kelley
and and this just not a viable solution. I think they're. I'm not advocating that we don't have consequences for crime. Not at all. I completely agree that we all need to own what we've done in the past, and that's what we instill in our men, and that's that's what I've instilled in my own life. Is I I need to own what I've done in the past. I was given a life sentence for murder, and I take that seriously. I I want to give my life in a demonstration that I can't balance the scales for what I've done, but my life should demonstrate that I'm trying, and I want to see that in all the rest of our guys too. But you know, strictly punitive measures will not fix this problem.
Robert Riggs
From your experience, how do we deal with the? I'd call them the psychopaths, the stranger on stranger violence, stranger on stranger murders. That and there's a whole there's a history. You met them. How do we how do we deal with that?
Bryan Kelley
You know there are so many just violent and vile predators in prison trying to prey on the weak, and and I've seen a bunch of them, and quite frankly, they scare me to death. There is no conscience, and I I don't know how to break through those worst cases. I've tried in some cases, and and so I think everybody is redeemable, but not everybody's ready, and I don't know how to get those worst cases ready, and and that's quite frankly not who we deal with. I'm looking for people who are ready to turn their lives around. They just don't know how. It's difficult. There are people that we need to have locked up. Defunding criminal justice, defunding police is certainly not going to be their answer because there's people that we need to protect the rest of society from.
Robert Riggs
But then I do wonder if, for those others, if we're too extreme.
Bryan Kelley
That's above my pay grade. Yeah,
Robert Riggs
that's a hard, hard question.
Bryan Kelley
I'm going to turn that over the Lord,
Robert Riggs
what do you want the our listeners in conclusion here to really know about this program and and why they might want to financially support
Bryan Kelley
it? Yeah, I've seen tremendous transformations. Like I said, over 600 businesses started by ex felons. We're are looking to 2x that over just the next few years. As we grow and expand and look for replication in other states, I've got about a dozen states right now that would take us tomorrow if we're ready, and we're almost there. We're working on that. I'm building what I intend to be the nation's leading second chance incubator and accelerator to really increase the pipeline of second chance business owners. You know, it's to my point earlier. It's fiscally responsible for us to take somebody who's been a perpetual drain on the tax base and turn them into a real producer, a job creator, a leader in their family and community. That's what we do. We bring in successful business men and women into prison and as mentors and guides, coaches to this population that makes a tremendous difference in our society. I've shared with many successful businessmen, say, hey, you know, you can be a mentor to a guy, to a kid that's going to business school, to going to Harvard, and you've done a good thing. Don't stop doing that. But you're if when you do that with us, you're taking somebody who has been in that cycle of poverty and crime and turning them into a positive force in our community, and you've made a huge difference. And so, there's ways to volunteer with PP to get involved, to support, to to donate. But I would say I've got my business card is a get into jail free card, and I take all kinds of people into prison to see what's going on and help foster change in these men. and And instead of sitting at home and watching the news, lamenting at the state of the deterioration of our country, getting involved, helping take somebody who would be on the nightly news and turning them into somebody who is a positive impactor in our community is a huge difference maker.
Robert Riggs
Brian, that's the last word. And as I said back at the beginning, I've got friends that are business executives involved in your program, and they tell me it's they really see a difference, and it's the kind of differences that that really are needed from my years inside the prison system. So thank you, and for our listeners, I'm going to put in the show notes links to how you can get involved and help. That's it for this week's edition of True Crime Reporter. Thank you so much, Robert. We want to be your favorite true crime podcast, so please recommend us to your friends and leave a review wherever you listen. If you want to receive updates and bonus interviews, join our true crime community at truecrimereporter.com. If you have suggestions or know of a case that we should look into, email us at fan at truecrimereporter.com. This podcast is a trademarked and copyrighted news organization based in Dallas, Texas. You can read more about our news team at truecrimereporter.com. Thanks for listening to our journey into darkness.
